How many cartoonish demo videos have you seen around?
Tons. But do they work?
Or is there a better way to create a killer demo video for your startup/product/project?
Let’s discover all the secrets of demo videos with Chris Johnson and Jason Moore founders of Simplifilm.
About Simplifilm Founders:
The co-founders of Simplifilm are Chris Johnson and Jason Moore.
Both are experienced internet business veterans, with years of experience in selling, marketing and helping small business owners go live on the web.
Chris Johnson: Co-Founder:
Chris has been at the vanguard of internet video sales, working to sell real estate online since 2001. He manages the business and runs the day-to-day operations.
Chris handles writing duties, picking which clients get to work with us, managing the calendar and pricing our work. In just a short time, Simplifilm has become the field leader in motion graphics product demos.
His past experience includes real estate and mortgage. He continues to live in Gresham, Oregon with his wife Heather and their two children. He can be reached at [email protected], or on LinkedIn and Twitter.
Jason Moore, Co-Founder:
Jason Moore is the award-winning designer behind Simplifilm’s creative vision and work.
He began his career at the School of Advertising Art and went on to become one of the most sought after speakers, thinkers, and creators in the field of animation.
Today, he is the author of nine popular books on digital design, art and communication and his work has been honored with Hermes, UMAC and Telly Awards for innovation and creativity.
Most recently, his captivating approach book trailers have set new industry standards for excellence within the publishing business.
Jason is also a co-founder of Midnight Oil Productions, the first – and best – church media production house in the country.
He lives in Tipp City, OH with his wife, Michele and their two children.
You can contact Jason at [email protected] or on Facebook or Twitter
MM: Hello, everyone. Marco Montemagno here, the Tech Alchemist. And today
with me, we are three. It’s the first time we are three. And I’m here with
Chris Johnson and Jason Moore from Simplifilm. Hi, guys, how are you?
CJ: Good, thanks.
JM: Hey, good to be with you.
MM: Normally the Tech Alchemist interviews are split-screen interviews so
it’s very easy. I talk or the guests talk but, in three, I’m sure we’ll
create big chaos but we’ll try our best. The topic is so interesting. And
so many people are asking about help tips and advice to create better demo
As the Tech Alchemist community knows, I love to talk about a product or
services or a company that I’m testing or will be using or that I’ve used
in the past. Simplifilm, I’m working with you guys and I’m very happy about
it until this moment. We tried to create a demo video for Tech Alchemist so
it’s also very interesting for me to see behind the scenes, how it works,
what is required to create a demo video.
I thought it was very good to share this kind of knowledge with the Tech
Alchemist community because there’s a lot of good stuff here.
First of all, the main question is, demo videos are everywhere, can we
explain in 30 seconds what a demo video is and why are we starting to see
demo videos everywhere on the web? Who gets the question?
CJ: I’ll go for it here. A demo video is a way to get a user to understand
what you’re product does really, really fast. It makes them, hopefully it
makes them feel like they are actually using the product. The goal of a
demo video is to convey the specifics, the honest truth of what your
product does in a light that makes it easy to understand.
Why we’re seeing so many on the web is because it’s a very succinct,
effective way to get a message across and you don’t have to read a whole
ton of copy. You can figure out what a website or an app or a service or
whatever it is does, fast.
MM: Right. I’ll go straight to the point and I’ll tell you why I decided to
go with Simplifilm, so you have a real customer feedback with a real reason
why a person or a company decided to go with a company like you.
I was going around, for the last 15 years I’ve been watching tons of demo
videos of all kinds of companies. When I decided to create a Tech Alchemist
video, I was sick and tired of the cartoonish demo videos with animation of
a kind of a sing-song style of cartoon.
I thought, “Gosh, I don’t know if it works. I have no idea but I’m tired
and I think it’s boring.” I don’t know. I was really not convinced. When I
arrived on Simplifilm, I read some reasons why this is not the way to go
and I would like to talk about that a little because I think it’s very
CJ: Well, I’ll let Jason talk about metaphors in just a second but we call
them the ‘This is Doug’ videos. You know, “This is Doug, Doug has a
problem, now there’s an app that solves Doug’s problem”. They don’t work.
They’re condescending. I mean, we want to make sure that we indicate that
the company that we’re working with is high quality.
That’s why Jason builds a metaphor as opposed to just those blobby, stupid
cartoon characters that don’t work on what he does. So we would never make
the same video, well, Jason can talk about that, we would never make the
same video over and over again.
JM: Well, I think I’ll first just start by saying that, while cartoon
characters have sort of had a history of being spokespeople for products or
whatever, in the advertising industry, we’ve largely moved away from things
like the Jolly Green Giant and those sorts of, the Pillsbury Dough Boy,
although I guess he’s still around.
I think that people may not take your product seriously if there’s a
cartoon pitching it in just the creative economy that we’re in now. So
we’re really big fans of using a metaphor which is sort of a tangible way
of expressing abstract ideas or thoughts or to take something that’s a
little bit hard, taking your software that you know very well and you’ve
spent a lot of time in, that’s a lot to bite off.
Through some sort of a visual image or metaphor, we’re able to convey a
whole lot of information in not very much time in a way that sticks. The
thing I love about metaphor is, when you use a metaphor, and you encounter
that metaphor again, later on, away from the website, it creates recall so
you think about the video that you saw when you re-encounter that metaphor
for a second time.
MM: Right. Also, because my feelings about cartoons is that, or I mean,
your brand, I’m thinking about Mail Chimp for instance or a brand that has
a cartoon inside their logo as part of their image, their brand, then maybe
it makes sense.
Otherwise, you see a brand and then you see a cartoon that has nothing to
do with the brand, the dog that Chris was talking about, then you think,
“Well, what the Hell is this? I’m not a 3-year-old child.” I don’t know.
What do you guys think about that?
CJ: It works for Mail Chimp. They have a character that’s an asset that
they’re reusing again. We think, these one-off generic cartoon characters
that are just totally interchangeable don’t work because, it’s just saying,
hey, we’re a tech company too. There’s absolutely no creativity behind
JM: Right. I think the difference with a company like Mail Chimp is that,
the chimp is built into the name of their company. I mean, in a sense,
they’re using that as almost a visual metaphor. Where a lot of companies
use cartoon characters in videos, it’s sort of just tacked on at the end,
it really has nothing to do with their product.
As Chris said earlier, we don’t like to make the same video over and over.
Aa lot of those cartoon-style videos, it’s the same character over and
over, you slap a different logo on the end of it but it’s really not about
the company, it’s about the video that you’re buying.
If we do our job right at Simplifilm, we want to be invisible. We want to
inherit the properties of your company, take on your look. We want to be
kind of invisible in it. A lot of the companies out there that are using
kind of the cartoon approach really are, the style that they created, is
more about them than their customers. At least, that’s, sort of, our
CJ: Yeah. we want to inherit and enhance the properties and the design
assets that are already built. If you’ve got a book, a bestselling book or
a set of creative works, we want to take what you’ve already built and take
that further into motion graphics.
That’s the difference between us and some of our competitors. We don’t, you
know, we’re not the same companies as they are. They have different
philosophies. Our philosophy is just to take what you’ve done and translate
it and enhance it.
MM: OK. I understand the general vision about videos. Do you think demo
videos, so videos that explain products, services or a book or something,
are good for any kind of industry? Or there are industries where you say,
“No guys, you’d better stop and videos are probably not the right way to
explain?” What is your feedback about that?
JM: I would say when Chris and I first started working together, I would
regularly say to him, I don’t care what story it is, I’ll tell any story. I
think that it matters how you approach a video. I think you have to create
I think that’s what draws people in and, I’ll just say it, I’ve not
encountered an industry yet that you can’t find a way to tell a story. If
you’re only trying to present the product and the facts of the product and
the features, that’s why we love metaphors.
Metaphors sort of incorporate a story into the overall video. The idea is
that there’s a beginning, middle and end and over the course of that
there’s sort of a narrative. It’s not like creating a little mini-movie
with the cartoon characters.
There is sort of a visual narrative that happens and I feel like that can
apply to really any industry out there. Now Chris may have a different take
on that but that’s, I think, where I would land on that.
CJ: Yeah. I’ll say that there are certainly industries and businesses that
it’s not cost effective to get a Simplifilm or a premium explainer video-
type of treatment. There are some things that you should just do slides.
There are sometimes when you should just do a screen cast.
I’m not going to tell you that everybody who gets a video is going to make
money. It’s a case-by-case basis. If you have a product that has a scale,
if you have a following, you’re trying to either activate your followers or
build awareness, then, it makes sense. If you’re not at the right size,
then it’s a forced fit. It doesn’t make sense.
JM: One other thing I would just add to that is, we have, on occasion,
begun to work with a client and realized that we can’t tell the story they
want to tell. Or they want to tell a story that’s sort of outside of our
wheelhouse. Or they want sort of a glorified Power Point file and really we
want to work with clients that want to tell stories and want to tell
I wouldn’t say that I’ve encountered an industry that it doesn’t work for
but we have encountered clients, on a few occasions, that don’t see the
vision for where we want to help take them.
CJ: And that’s OK. There’s room for many companies out there. There’s a lot
of stuff. We consider ourselves to be more artists rather than technicians
and a lot of people just want us to do their paint-by-numbers animation and
that’s just not something that we’re into.
MM: Yeah. Also after you’ve been working on the Tech Alchemist, the
benchmark is so high and it’s so beautiful to work with me that it’s
difficult to work with any other company. I understand this. But, OK, I
hope you try.
JM: Hey, we’re going to put you in our mission statement from here on out.
CJ: That’s right. We’re done. I mean, we’re not even going to bother going
after Apple. We’ve got you. You know, what do we need?
MM: Let’s stay on this side. I was curious, I was always thinking that a
great video, by the way, this is what I am totally convinced of, that a
great video, in 2012 and in the next years will be unbelievably powerful
online. If I see someone writing a post and I create a video, I have a
totally different impact on the audience. That is so important.
On the other side, just a few days ago, I saw these stats about Facebook
sharing and a simple static image looks like it’s been shared much more
than a video. I was not really convinced about it. Also, you know you have
tons of stats about this.
Iin your opinion, I mean, the viral video is what people are talking about,
but on social media, do you see that videos the most effective form or do
you have evidence that maybe, I don’t know, images already from [inaudible
12:27] can work better?
JM: Well, one thing I would say is that people tend to want to say way too
much. The thing about sharing images is that’s very easy, it doesn’t take
very, it’s not much of a time investment. You look at an image and you get
your laugh out of it and you share that or whatever. We wrestle a little
bit sometimes with our clients because they want to make a 5-minute video
or something like that.
People just won’t invest the time in it. Again, I think story is important
if you have a great story to tell. If it’s visually interesting, there’s a
sense of mystery or intrigue. Like where’s this going to go. You keep it
short, I feel like those are the kind of videos that get passed around a
whole lot more than watching some sort of a long diatribe kind of trailer,
CJ: Yeah. You want to make sure when you make a video you want to make sure
that you don’t give people enough information to say, “No, I don’t want
it.” You want to try to get under their skin. Are images going to share
faster, spread faster than videos? Yeah, probably.
A video can get under your skin, you know? You have to see this movie. You
have to buy this app. You have a hole in your soul that you have to fill.
If we do the video right, it creates a need and it creates an ache for this
product. They miss this product. They wish they had a product like
[Headway] themes or whatever we’ve repped before. That’s the desire that a
video is hoping to create.
MM: Another thing that was really intriguing to me about Simplifilm the
first time that I came on the website, I probably arrived to you guys
because I saw this trailer from Ryan Holiday, ‘The Confessions of a Media
Manipulator.’ I thought, gosh this is an amazing video, you know? Kind of
Hollywood, ‘Sin City’ style, and I thought, amazing, it will cost, I don’t
know, $50,000. I don’t know. It looks like a Hollywood production.
I think this is also another point. Probably if you can keep the cost that
isn’t like a Hollywood production and you can bring quality videos to
companies for demo videos, then probably the company will start to embrace
it. I think you started this trend and I think it’s very interesting. What
do you think?
JM: I think I wish you would’ve been the one signing the check if you
thought it was worth $50,000.
CJ: There’s kind of price-ceilings for stuff. Even a bestselling book, I
don’t think it makes much sense to spend more than $10,000 or $15,000 on a
video. I don’t think the ROI works above that too well. I think that it’s
you want to send a strong signal that you’re quality but if you’re spending
$25,000-$30,000, it’s not going to pay back even if the video gets a
million views and it does as well as, like, the Ryan Holiday video does.
You’ve got to just realize and be respectful to the industries and the
people that you’re working with. We want to make the nicest video we can
for the lowest price possible. That’s always a constant battle because
time, you know, costs money and if we had more time, we’d be able to do
more stuff. But we have to get stuff done and keep it moving on a regular
MM: Right. You anticipated a question that I always have in my mind. The
right cost today, 2012, for a good quality demo video is, if you have to
give a range of price for a business who wants to have a demo video, the
industry I’m saying, I’m not talking specifically about Simplifilm.
CJ: Well, there’s kind of two ways to go about it. Between $0.00 and
$1,000, that’s a pretty safe and low risk way to get a video done. And
that’s a good decision for a lot of people. You know, get a $500.00 video
or you know, get somebody to help you with some styles for a low-end video.
There’s just kind a really big no-man’s-land between like $1.00 and $10,000
where you’re going to get a lot different kinds of quality. And a lot of
the same videos are going to get made. You’re not going to be original.
You’re not going to stand out. Then, if you spend too much, it doesn’t make
I would say that a good quality demo video would be between $10,000 and,
say, $25,000 for a 90-secondish piece, give or take a few seconds. If
you’ve got some assets already built or designed or already done, that may
change the price or influence it that way.
MM: Right. On the creative side of creating a video, producing a video, I
was curious to understand, in your experience, you’re doing only animation,
suspended graphics and so on? Or do you think it also makes sense when you
are storytelling a video, to introduce real people, interviews, real faces?
Or you just choose animation because you think it’s the most effective way
to go? What’s the reason behind it?
JM: That’s a great question. We at Simplifilm, haven’t done anything with
live, on-camera talent. I think that can work. Part of it for us is that, I
think, it’s our niche. We know that we can do that very well. It’s also
pretty exciting. It’s something that not everyone can do. It just has that
additional edge, I think, animation does that sets you apart a little bit
Even a novice can pick up a camera and you know. There is certainly an art
to cinematography and lighting and that sort of thing but not everyone can
animate and that sort of thing. I feel like animation creates that kind of
sticking power that people want.
I mean the Ryan Holiday trailer you were talking about, I saw a lot of
reactions to that, like “Wow, I didn’t see that coming”. Or doing a giant
media octopus or whatever it is. There’s something more visually intriguing
about that than simply hearing the author saying a few words about his book
or her book. I don’t know, it just gives that sort of extra something that
keeps people plugged in.
CJ: The other thing about animation from a business perspective, which is,
if you change your product, if you change something, you don’t have to
recreate the whole set, recreate everything. If you get some insight that
says customers want this instead of that, it’s possible to do a drop-in and
to recreate a scene. You don’t have to throw away your whole animation.
If you get rid of a feature or add a feature or, add an integration, you
can just add it to the animation later. It’s a lot more flexible than a
live-action dollar-for-dollar. Now, I’m going to say that Simplifilm
probably will eventually get into some live-action stuff.
We’ll probably do that when we can be as good as we are at it, as we are at
animation. We want to be the best in the world, no exceptions. And we’re
getting there in animation. We want to get there, you know, in the live-
action side when we can really compete, when we have something to say. And
when it’s time for us to do that, we’ll go and tell stories in whatever
medium we need to tell stories in.
JM: If I could just add one other thought. Especially with our book
trailers, the idea is that we want to make that cover of that book or that
world sort of come to life. That’s hard to do with just someone sitting in
front of a camera.
Again, we try to inherit the properties of whatever software we’re doing or
whatever company’s story we’re telling or whatever book we’re telling the
story for. We want everything in that trailer, from the time it begins
until the time it ends, to sort of feel like you’ve lived in the world for
MM: Let’s talk now about the process. I’m living, I’m processing, I have
your stuff in my head every day about all the steps to follow. Marco, you
already did this. You have to give feedback on the script and the voice and
everything. When I started, I didn’t think it was so well structured; the
process to arrive to create the video.
I was used to someone who just gave me a, I don’t know, prototype and say,
“Hey do you like this? No, let’s change maybe the color”. You follow a much
more structured and more effective way.
Can you maybe, Chris or Jason, can you explain a little bit better, what
are the most important steps in the process of creating a demo video?
CJ: Well, setting expectations, from my end, is the most important part.
You know what to expect. You know what’s going to happen now. You know
what’s going to happen next. That’s kind of my end because I run that part
of the front-end experience along with Dennis, our director of details.
We want to make sure that you understand exactly what’s happened, what’s
about to happen and what you need to do, if anything, from our perspective.
JM: From my perspective, I usually come in after the script has been
completed. Our scripts normally don’t have a lot of visual cues in it.
Occasionally we’ll have some stuff that we’ll do. My job is to somehow take
that script and interpret it visually.
One of the things, I think, is the worst thing you can do as a video
storyteller is to start at the computer. I feel like you end up with
something that is really neat eye-candy but it doesn’t really tell a story.
You’ve got pretty colors or neat effects or whatever but you’re not really
focused on the creative aspects of storytelling and how you keep the viewer
I will step away from the computer sometimes and I will spend a day, maybe
I should say I step away from the computer but I step away from my
animation tools, I’ll go out and look at what inspires me.
I’ll try and look for references; just what looks hot, what doesn’t. And
sometimes it will be 2 days of just trying to get my head around what this
thing is before I ever begin animating. That approach is very different
than an approach where the background is always the same, or the
character’s, are always the same or whatever.
Again, at Simplifilm, we really try to make our videos seamless. So from
the moment it begins to the moment it ends, the camera is sort of tracking
along and we’re telling the story without breaks. We want to keep the
viewer engaged all the way.
Again, the use of metaphor is pretty consistent. We’re always trying to
find visual ways, like the mountains that start off in the beginning of
your video that sort of look like a chart but it’s also a mountain, is just
an interesting visual to kind of keep people engaged in the story.
MM: Right. By the way, my surname is Montemagno, and ‘monte’ means
‘mountain’ so this is an additional take that you didn’t know but I’m
telling you. So it’s very interesting. Cool.
JM: Now, we researched that for a long time. We researched that.
CJ: It’s on purpose. Everything’s on purpose.
MM: I saw Simplifilm spies around my house.
CJ: Yeah, that’s right.
MM: Right. Can we sum up some of the most important steps when creating a
good demo video? Collecting all the data about the product, services, is
one step. Setting the right expectations. Writing a script, so writing a
story that makes sense. Then starting to create the animation.
Choosing the voice, this is another point. I will ask a very stupid
question but I was always thinking about that. Does a male voice or a
female voice perform better or does it depend on the project? Do you have
any stats or your experience about that? Does it take you in one direction
CJ: Well, it depends on the product for sure. That’s something that’s
fairly easy and fairly inexpensive and straightforward to test out.
Sometimes it doesn’t make any difference at all. That’s probably, in 50% of
cases, it doesn’t make a lot of difference whether it’s a male voice or a
It’s a matter of taste and preference in how you want to support the brand.
Sometimes a male voice will outperform a female voice even when it seems to
be behind. So if a video, I think it was YesWare, that the female voice,
people watched the video until the end more than the male.
People bought the product more from the male even though they only watched
half the video. That’s a success, right? That’s a win if you get people to
convert because of the video that you have.
That’s something that’s, Wistia, and there’s a number of other tools that
make it fairly straightforward to test different video objects and you want
to do a fair amount of that. You don’t want to obsess or it because you
don’t want to create another job for yourself.
You want to take a look at it and see, and if you have a strong feeling and
you want to represent your brand a certain way, that’s the way to go.
Right? I mean, if you don’t have a preference, then testing may be
something you try to do.
JM: Yeah. We’re pretty careful about the voices we choose too. We try to
make sure that if we have a more corporate client, we get someone who
sounds a little more straightforward, corporate. We’ve got a go-to guy for
young and hip. We’ve got our go-to people for different styles and there’s
a time or two that we’ve cast a voice that wasn’t quite the right fit and
have even gone back and re-recorded voices after realizing that maybe we
didn’t have the right one in there. Voice-over work makes a huge
MM: I’ve been given several voices to choose and one was very sexy like
Angelina Jolie and I immediately said, “Yeah, I want this one”. Then Dennis
said, “No way, this is not good for the Tech Alchemist. You gave me guys, I
don’t know, a man like Sean Connery. I don’t know but OK. Good. No, that’s
About converting, this is another interesting point. A video that converts,
this, in the end, is the goal, I think, to have a video that brings a
result. Not only that people say, “Oh this is a nice video”. What are the
metrics that you try to look at to understand if a video converts or not?
CJ: I think it’s important to show the actual product or a facsimile of the
product. Showing people that they really have something here rather than
showing a phone with things bursting out of it. Showing the screens of the
product. That it’s an engineered and built and intentional product, is
going to go a long way to make people more comfortable.
Then they’re going to say, “Oh, this is a real thing, this isn’t just
somebody’s fantasy and I can see this right here. Boy, I can use that
because all I have to do is type this stuff in these fields and I get this
thing”. So that’s the, that’s my gut feeling. When we’ve done more and more
showing of the product, the customer feedback has been very good for us.
JM: We also sometimes hear from our clients that their sales increased. One
of our clients said that their sales tripled after we put our video out.
Also I feel like we have a lot of repeat clients. While we don’t hear
specific numbers, we’re pretty certain that they’re converting their video
to customers or they wouldn’t be coming back to us.
CJ: Well, we’re not cheap and they can pay us a couple of times, so I guess
that’s something to say, right?
MM: Right. Just a couple of questions. How long does it take to create a
good demo video, to give a business listening to us an idea of the right
timing to create a good demo video? What’s the best length for a demo
JM: Good question. For us it takes about 150 hours of animation, 100 to 150
hours of animation. We’re big fans of the minute to a minute and half
timeline. We think there are diminishing returns the more you go past a
minute and a half. Viewers just don’t hang that long. Chris can probably
talk more about the process pre-video but we’ve got about 150 hours of
CJ: Yeah. As far as like time that it takes, as far as the business person,
they don’t care how many hours we spend but generally from you send your
contract and deposit to us, to delivery, it’s anywhere between 6-weeks,
when we’re fast and everything works right and there’s not a lot of
revisions, 12 to 15 if it takes awhile to get there.
Why that’s happening is that we don’t get feedback back from clients and we
kind of get stuck. If a client doesn’t, you know, we need some feedback
back or we don’t have an approval on this particular section then we’re
stuck and we can’t move forward. If we don’t want to lose three days, we
shift to another project or whatever we have to do to keep our stuff
Our animators, Jason and his team, aren’t cheap either and we want to make
sure that they’re working. The client can really influence it by making it
easy, by getting assets to us, their logos, their animations, all of their
stock from assets and getting us also the approvals in a timely fashion.
JM: That’s why we keep harassing you.
CJ: The best length, I’m going to go with like 70 or 75 seconds because
we’ve seen the numbers and it seriously erodes fast after 70 or so seconds.
People abandon it, even if they’re well-intentioned. The longer you stay
doing one thing, the more risk there is of doing something else, right?
Does that make sense? You’re up doing one thing and your phone could ring,
your boss could come in, your dog could want to go outside and you’re
watching the video, you get pulled away from it. We want to get the message
out there in under a minute and a half for sure.
JM: The other thing is, I feel like the video is really just meant to be an
invitation into the door. We’re not trying to say everything there is to
say about the video. There are still things that could be communicated on
the website, could be things that are communicated in print, could be
things that a salesman might share with you.
The video is really meant to sort of create a level of comfort, you know,
welcome into our world, come in and have a seat and we’ll share the rest of
it with you in a different format.
MM: Final question guys and then I’ll let you go. What is the best tip that
you can give to a company that wants to have a demo video, if you just had
one tip, what would you recommend?
CJ: Hire us for next year.
JM: I would say that my one tip would be less is more. Don’t try to say
everything. Pick 1,2 or 3 things and go with those. You’re in love with
your software or your product or your book or whatever, but the people that
you’re talking to, that you’re trying to reach, are not yet in love with
it. They don’t care about everything. So, 1, 2 or 3 things are going to do
a whole lot more for you than trying to say more than that.
CJ: I would say that you probably want to try to make a script that gets
under their skin and take some chances. Don’t try to say everything. Don’t
play it safe. Be bold and try to be daring with what you’re doing.
If you’re in a marketplace that’s competitive, you want to stand out and
beat your competition by beating their angle, by being specific and not
being we’re just another app like everybody else. This is Doug. Doug has an
app for his iPhone. That doesn’t work. Be daring.
MM: Excellent guys. I have to stop here. I stole so much of your time but
great tips. A lot of interesting stuff.
Thank you so much. Chris Johnson. Jason Moore. Simplifilm. Go check out
these guys. Good luck in everything. I hope the Tech Alchemist video will
be amazing. I’m sure it will be amazing.
CJ: Us too. Thanks so much.
JM: Thank you. Thanks a lot.