How to be on TOP of…Google, Social Media, Mobile? With Rand Fishkin (SEOmoz)

How can you be on top of Google with all this Penguin, Panda and next Google animals?

What will happen to SEO?

How to build a great brand with Social Media?

How could you use Inbound Marketing to succeed?

So many topics in this interview with Rand Fishkin Founder and CEO of SEOmoz…just enjoy!

About Rand Fishkin:

Rand is the CEO of SEO software company; SEOmoz.

He co-authored the Art of SEO from O’Reilly Media, co-founded, and was named on PSBJ’s 40 Under 40 List and BusinessWeek’s 30 Best Tech Entrepreneurs Under 30.

Rand is an addict of all things content & social on the web, from his multiple blogs to Twitter, Google+, Facebook, LinkedIn,FourSquare and even a bit of Pinterest.

In his minuscule spare time, Rand enjoys the company of his amazing wife, whose serendipitous travel blog chronicles their journeys.

Raw Transcription:

Marco: Hello, everyone. Marco Montemagno, here, The Tech Alchemist. Today with me, I would say really a great person before then a great entrepreneur, Rand Fishkin. How are you, Rand?

Rand: Doing great. Thank you for having me, Marco.

Marco: So, Rand, I was thinking about how can I introduce Rand in a way that I can really transfer to the readers and The Tech Alchemist community how I perceived your job in a way that I gave a clear picture of you. So, I was thinking about a few things that I would like to say before to begin our chat, okay? If I say stupid things, or wrong things you just say, “No. This is not like that.”

Rand: I’ll jump in, all right.

Marco: All right? Okay. The first thing, if I think about Rand Fishkin, Founder of SEOmoz, a successful company, I would say is the de facto standard for SEO, really good things. Got funded also recently we’ve been talking here with Brad Feld. I don’t remember the amount of funding collected until this moment.

Rand: $18 million.

Marco: All right, and based in Seattle, I would say.

Rand: Yes.

Marco: All right, so this is the first – it was the easiest thing, okay? The second thing that I was thinking is I really love the way that you talk about, I wouldn’t say SEO, the way that you talk and evangelize how to create an online identity in a good way, in a positive way, in a way that it works both professionally and personal.

So, with your blog, with your video, your Friday videos where you explain stuff, so this, I think, is a really cool and unique way that you’re doing, for a long time. Because I mean, I remember the first videos several years ago, probably.

Rand: Yeah.

Marco: Yeah. So this, I would say, is the second part of your character. Then I go, Rand, into a little bit unknown things about your character. But I think that they are cool. The first one is that you, for me, you’re an amazing speaker and people maybe don’t focus on it because maybe they read your content and these kinds of things. But, guys, if you have ten minutes, 20 minutes, go to have a look at Rand Talk.

I think this is really a cool and important thing because you can educate people about a difficult subject. So, this is something I really appreciate. Then the fourth, then I finish. I stop here and I start with the tough questions, Rand. I’ve been organizing an event, several times, several years ago, I think, a couple of years ago and I was inviting Rand, okay?

When you were coming there, you were very professional, very serious. So, I thought, “Okay, guys. Good. Probably he will be a boring speaker.” I never told you this, but I was thinking in the beginning. Then you started to speak and you were amazing. So, I thought, “Gosh, this guy, really, he knows how to catch attention of people even if he’s talking about a difficult topic.”

Then, it was a party of the event and I thought, “Ah, American, very professional, I don’t know if he’s the right person for the party.” But when you went on the stage and you were dancing, you were great. So, the fourth thing is that you’re also a great dancer.

Rand: Yeah. I forgot about that night. That was a good night.

Marco: You were the king of the dancing. So, I really fell in love with your professional approach and your life approach, really – work hard. Play hard. From that moment on I always thought, “Rand, really, number one for me.” Yeah, that’s it. So, do you think it’s the right picture or not?

Rand: I think you’ve got it down cold. So, I have a question for you, then.

Marco: All right.

Rand: When do I get to come back and dance in Italy?

Marco: Yeah, absolutely. We need to do a comeback for some dance or something.

Rand: Yeah.

Marco: I say, probably you’re coming in Europe, or in London.

Rand: Yeah. I’m going to be in London, I think, two weeks from now for SearchLove, just Distilled SearchLove.

Marco: All right.

Rand: I was going to be in Helsinki as well, speaking at an event in Finland but unfortunately I had to cancel due to some stuff here.

Marco: Okay, perfect.

Rand: Hopefully, yeah, I’m looking forward to coming – I am going to be in Italy next June, I think late May, early June.

Marco: Okay.

Rand: So, if you have anything going then, you should let me know.

Marco: Yeah. We’ll meet again, definitely. So, Rand, I want to go straight to the point and tell you the pain that we feel, all the business people feel in this moment. That is, so many things are changing every two milliseconds and if I start from Google, for instance, every company, every business tries to figure out how they can be visible. How they can be on top of Google without getting mad, because Penguin, Panda, and changing the algorithm every two seconds.

So, the first thing that I would like you to help us to understand is what’s happening? I mean, is Google going crazy? All the changing that they are doing are for the good, for the bad? What a business should do to survive in this situation from a general point of view?

Rand: Yeah, so Google is making pretty active changes but they’ve been making active changes all along. The difference between a lot of the changes that they’ve made in the last 12, 18 months versus what you saw for the last three or four years before that is that recently they’ve been focusing on, I would say eliminating a lot of manipulative tactics that happen in the SEO world.

So, for a long time, from 2006 or ’07, I’d say, until about 2011, really Google was taking not very much action against a lot of forms of what many people thought were web spam. Buying links, manipulating the link-grab, putting low quality, thin content on your site, having a keyword variation on every page, all these different kinds of things.

You don’t need to know the specifics just that the broad picture is Google wasn’t really taking action against these folks. Then the last 18 months we’ve seen them take a lot of action and because of that the problem is that what the SEO world started to believe over those four years is that, “Hey, these practices are okay. I can get away with them.” When you can get away with them they start to become almost like, not a best practice, but an industry standard.

So, now when Google is hitting people hard with things like Panda and Penguin updates, like their exact match domain penalization that they did recently, those kinds of things take people who thought they were good at SEO and kick them 100 spots back in the results. So, they start to really panic. That’s where you get that sense of panic and those blog posts with 100 comments on them, people angry at Google, that kind of thing.

Marco: What do you think is a good move from Google, so it will clean a little bit of the space?

Rand: It’s a good move. It just came so late that they had already created a bad expectation. So, it’s the right thing to do. It’s just the right thing to do four years ago.

Marco: All right, I stay on a vision level just to begin to understand better what’s happening. We saw Facebook just got 1 billion users, almost, and I heard Mark Zuckerberg at the last TechCrunch disrupt only talking about mobile and search, will come with search and so on. So, obviously, if they start to really enable search among all their billion users they will give big competition to Google. So, what’s the situation now?

I mean, if you should recommend to companies, how to balance their online presence, they have only to focus on Google, to be on top of Google? They have to think about Facebook? They have to think about Google Plus? Where would you focus if you would recommend?

Rand: So, this is just like advertising in the real world. You go to a gelato shop in Seattle and you say, “Well, where are you going to advertise?” They’re going to say, “Well, I’m going to advertise in communities that are close to my restaurant. I’m going to advertise in places where people are likely to see the ad and the people who will see the ad would be likely to come to my gelatoria,” right?

So, maybe I’ll buy some stuff on the side of a bus. Maybe I’ll buy some outdoor advertising on a park bench. Maybe I’ll buy a billboard. Maybe I’ll buy some advertising in the local newspaper. But I wouldn’t buy it in a national newspaper. I probably wouldn’t buy a TV ad because it’ll reach too broad an audience and won’t target the people who are just in this neighborhood. People aren’t going to travel from miles away to go to the gelato shop.

Apply that to the online world. Where are your customers, who are your customers, and how should you best reach them? What are the affordable channels for you to reach them and what are you good at? That’s really what it comes down to. So, a lot of people’s customers are on Facebook, if you’re in the consumer world.

But if you’re in the B2B world, people don’t share B2B content on Facebook. That’s not what people click Like on. people go, “Ooh, wow, a corrugated aluminum producer? Like.” It never happens, right? But, they might indeed tweet something that shares some stats about roofing. They might indeed go and find you through a Google search, and so you really want to be doing SEO and probably paid search as well.

They might reach your website from some other means, through an email link, through a link from another website, through tech and trade journals, through conferences and events, and so you want to be at all of those places. This is the classic marketing problem of placing yourself where your customers are.

Marco: Well, what do you think, Rand? You recently wrote about content marketing and inbound marketing?

Rand: Yeah, so content marketing is sort of one of the channels of inbound marketing. All inbound marketing means, inbound just means channels you don’t pay for. You earn versus buy, right? So, paid search is buy it. Retargeting is buy it. Display ads are buy it. Park benches are buy it, right? Then, blogging is earn it. That’s a form of content marketing. Email marketing, that’s earn it. SEO is earn it. Social media, that’s earn it. So, it’s just a way to describe those.

Marco: Is it correct if I say that there is a shift from the classic SEO strategy of getting links, tons of links from everywhere to a more strategic approach also online and try to build your identity, I would say, also in a more ethic way, in a way that you…

Rand: Yeah. I agree with you. So, Google has essentially taken a lot of action against manipulative links. Penguin is the most robust example but there are plenty of others, and they sort of said, “Don’t build a website. We, Google, are not interested in ranking your website. But if you build a brand on the internet, we would like to rank your brand,” right?

So, what they don’t want to see is, “Oh, well I really want to rank for discount online shoes, so I’m going to build discount-” That’s not a brand. That’s not a brand. Google doesn’t want to rank that. Just because you went and found a bunch of directories, and social media sites and profiles, and you’ve bought a bunch of student webpages and put links to doesn’t mean that you are a brand who deserves to be ranked, and that was classic SEO.

That’s what a ton of SEO people did for a very long time. What Google is saying is “We like brands like Zappos and Endless and, and all these types of folks. Those are brands. ” If you build a brand, and it is well-recognized, and people are talking about you, and there are social signals and user and usage data signals that they get from Google Chrome, Google, Analytics, your Android phone, all that kind of stuff, then, “Yes, we want to rank you.”

So it’s becoming much less of a, “Here are all the ranking factors and signals, and let’s try to manipulate those,” and much more of a, “I’d better build something amazing that people really enjoy and like, and then do a good job of making it accessible to Google.”

Rand: Right. I love the idea that you have to build a brand and you don’t have to build a website or a mobile app, because the problem that I see every day is that in the end, companies say, “Okay, but to build a brand maybe I have to, I don’t know, create videos, a Facebook fan page,” so I have so many things to do that for a small company, maybe, you don’t have people that are able to create all that kind of stuff.

How do you solve this problem, because if you buy it in a Google Adwords or Facebook advertising, you put some money in, you push a button and then it goes by itself? To build a brand, it is a big effort, I think.

Rand: I agree. It is a big effort. But I would place this next to anything else that happens in life, in human existence, that when you put a lot of concerted effort in, and you bother to learn the ropes and you go through the pain of the learning process, and you learn from your mistakes and you continue investing, you get better at it.

Any sports that you’ve ever played, if you play football, if you play tennis, if you play a musical instrument, if you’re learning to play the guitar, you know that you have to learn the ins and outs. Learn the chord changes, learn how to get that physical muscle memory in your fingers to make those chords sound right, make the transition sound right. The online world is no different, right?

So, you need to go spend some time on Facebook. See what Facebook pages in your niche, in your world, in your industry are doing well. What kind of content are they posting? I’m going to spend a few hours digging into that. Then I’m going to experiment. I’m going to try putting some of that kind of stuff on my Facebook page. I’m going to learn from Facebook Insights. Maybe I’m going to buy a little bit of advertising. Maybe I won’t even, maybe I’ll just start organically and see what happens over time.

I’ll do the same thing with Twitter. I’m going to do the same thing with SEO. There are one-person companies that have built incredible brands on the internet, incredible brands. One of the biggest online dating sites, which is, by the way, one of the one of the most competitive fields on the web – PlentyofFish, is built by Markus Frind and he’s one guy in Vancouver. He says he doesn’t even work that much.

Marco: He solved also his dating problem.

Rand: Yeah, he solved his dating problem. So, you think about the people who build amazing brands, it does not take a huge team. It doesn’t take some magical formula that nobody knows except for a few gurus. No. It’s like anything else. It takes time. It takes effort. But there are so many wonderful resources now on the web to learn these things. If you’re willing to expend the energy, you can become great at it.

Marco: I have a couple of questions, Rand, about your experience with two platforms, where I think you really are becoming a master of those two platforms. One is SlideShare. For you guys, just go on SlideShare and check Rand’s presentations. Well, I think they’re really good. They are very well done, both technically and also from the presentation point of view. What’s your experience with that? I mean, is SlideShare a channel that you try to explore and you would recommend to use it, and how?

Rand: So, SlideShare is one, it’s like those channels I was talking about where you find where your users are. I know for a fact lots of marketers, which are the people I’m trying to reach – I want to reach professional marketers and say, “Hey, if you guys do SEO and social media marketing and content marketing, all the inbound channels, then SEOmoz’s software is for you.” So, I know that marketers are on SlideShare.

If your audience is also on SlideShare, so a lot of professionals in the creative field, advertising, digital, obviously marketing, design, if those types of folks are on SlideShare, then yes. Certainly it pays. Anytime you’re giving a presentation, a talk at a conference or an event for whatever you’re doing, whatever kind of business you are, if you’re speaking and you make a slide presentation and it’s of high quality, you should put it on SlideShare before you give the talk.

Then when you get on stage, you tell people, “You can download my slides at SlideShare at this URL.” I usually make a custom Bitly URL, so I’ll have Then people type in and they go to the SlideShare page, and then they start tweeting it and sharing it. All those shares make it go to the front page of SlideShare if it gets enough views fast enough. Then lots more people see it on the front page of SlideShare and it gets featured.

It’s like I’m pushing a boulder up a hill, and then when I get on stage, you push it over the edge and that SlideShare goes popular.

Marco: Another channel that you’re using in a great way, in my opinion, is how you create videos and these Friday whiteboards where you explain with this whiteboard, very well-colored now. It’s a great way to engage users. What are your tips about it? Also, because I saw that, I think at SEOmoz you’ve been using Wistia probably, to upload videos.

Rand: Yes.

Marco: Wistia, for you guys, is a platform where you can upload videos like Viddler, and you can get a lot of metrics about where people stop to watch your video and stuff. So, what’s your experience with video, which I think is much more complex to be produced? It’s not like you write a post and it’s done.

Rand: Yeah, so video, I think, when you want to do video you need to do it right. So, in the early days of the internet, 2002, 2001, people’s expectations for video was pretty low. Even in the early days of YouTube, 2003, ’04, which we started doing Whiteboard Friday in 2005, people’s expectations for the quality of what a small business could produce was pretty low.

Today, great cameras are relatively inexpensive. There are a lot more people with video expertise, video production, and editing expertise. So, users have a much higher expectation of what’s going to be in the video. You can see Whiteboard Friday today is much more professional than it was three or four years ago. What I’d say about video, we do two things.

So, we have a YouTube channel where we put videos, including the new Whiteboard Fridays online and we also put some other kinds of video on there. So, oftentimes if I give a presentation, I’ll sort of do a faux presentation in front of the whiteboard, and then I’ll project the presentation onto the whiteboard, that kind of thing. That works pretty well. We put those on YouTube, and that’s to build up a channel.

YouTube itself is actually the second most popular search engine in the world behind Google. It gets more searches than Microsoft, or Bing, or Yahoo, or any of those. So, YouTube is a very, very powerful platform if you can put the right kind of material on there, and the right kind of material on YouTube, how-to works extremely well. Funny stuff works really well. Informative stuff works really well. We use Wistia actually for something else.

So, we use Wistia to put this content on our own site because it enables self-controlled embedding. So, for example, when you embed a YouTube video on somebody else’s site, it points back to YouTube. But if you embed a Wistia video that we’ve created onto your website, it’ll actually point back to where we tell it to point back to, which is our website.

So, we get the traffic. We get to control the experience, which is great. Then we also get, as you mentioned, a lot more fancy metrics. It automatically sends XML video sitemaps to Google so you get the little video box in the results next to your listing. So it does lots of cool things.

Marco: So you upload the same video both on Wistia and on YouTube?

Rand: Right.

Marco: All right. Another thing, blogging, I mean, SEOmoz blog is amazing, I think. Really, so many posts from both SEOmoz team and guest posts by the users, by the community, so much interesting stuff, a lot of comments, a lot of people really going deep in how to be visible online. How do you consider blogging, I mean, comparing it five years ago? Is blogging dead as a lot of people say? It’s still great and good and alive and kicking? What’s your opinion about it?

Rand: So, what’s interesting is that there are fewer active blogs today than there were, say, about four years ago. Not many fewer, but a little bit fewer, so you’ve sort of seen a peak of number of active blogs. But blog readership has grown about 2x in the last four years. So this means more people reading fewer blogs says to me, big opportunity for bloggers – big, big opportunity for bloggers and it’s just a wonderful thing. For us, our traffic on the blog, it’s grown every year tremendously.

I think right now we get about 2 million visits to the site, and 60%, 70% of that is to the blog, so it’s really, really remarkable. We have 120,000 subscribers to the blog every day. It really is a great way to reach people to influence, have thought leadership, and to do good things like SEO as well.

Marco: Right. Tools, if you have to recommend three tools that every company in the world should use to be visible online, to be on top of obviously their top? I know that is a silly question, because it depends by the platform and it depends by so many variables. But in your opinion, something that you should say, “Hey, you absolutely have to use at least these three tools for your activity, for your online positioning,” what would you recommend?

Rand: Let’s see. My number one is going to be Google Analytics, because you can’t improve what you can’t measure, and you have to be measuring. You have to be measuring which sources are sending you traffic and how valuable that traffic is, what it’s doing on your website, which pages are failing, and which ones are working. The other one I’m probably going to say is – well, it’s kind of a choice.

So if you’re looking for a free tool, I would use Google Webmaster Tools, which does a good job of sort of showing you errors and problems on your website. It is free. It’s just at, and it will give you some pretty good information in there. The paid version of that would be SEOmoz. So, SEOmoz lets you kind of track your rankings. It shows you a lot more detail around what it’s crawling and the errors it’ll message to you. It’ll help you optimize pages, that kind of thing.

Google Webmaster Tools provides almost a little bit of that but not quite. SEOmoz is sort of what we wish Google gave us. Then the third one I’m going to say is, if you are thinking about building a content site, particularly a blog or an article or news or anything like that, I’d probably recommend that you use WordPress. WordPress just does such a great job as a content management system and there are so many plugins that let you do all the detailed level stuff.

You can plug in Google Analytics. You can plug in Discuss, which is a great commenting system. You can plug in Zemanta, which is a great content recommendation system. There’s a huge library of things you can do. WordPress is fast. It’s SEO friendly. There’s lots of good advice out there for WordPress bloggers, great themes, tons of developers. So, those would probably be my top three. I could give you 20, though.

Marco: A couple of things more, then I’ll let you go. I know you’re super busy. Mobile, everyone talks about mobile. In Italy we’re bad with mobile. We have three mobiles each, so it’s an exploding market, obviously. One big question is, okay, if I have a mobile app and I think about SEO, how can I have my mobile app more visible on top of the App store or Google Play?

Is there any specific tip that you can give, that you can provide for people or a company who maybe, they have a mobile app but they don’t know how to scale the ranking?

Rand: Yeah. Okay, so the mobile app world is very, very different from the web world. Most of the apps that get downloaded don’t get downloaded through search. But if they do get downloaded through search it’s not a search for anything generic, right? So people don’t search for, “app that lets me check in at local businesses”. They search for Foursquare. They don’t search for, “app that lets me send 140 character messages to my friend”. They search for Twitter.

So, really the search is not unbranded like it is on the web. On the web people do perform those kinds of searches. They’ll say, “Oh, I’m looking for local restaurants in Seattle,” and those types of searches happen a lot on mobile devices. But they happen on the web, not in the App store. So ranking in the app store doesn’t mean the same thing as ranking in a web search.

So, I’d be very careful about thinking, “Oh, I don’t rank very well for the keyword that I thought I was supposed to target.” Don’t worry about keywords in the App store. What you are worried about are downloads and you’re worried about ratings. You want to get lots of good ratings from people and that means building a very, very slick app and usually it means building marketing channels not in the App store themselves, meaning on the web.

So that means you want to get a powerful Twitter account and lots of people liking your page on Facebook and lots of people maybe posting images of things in your app to Pinterest, and maybe making the homepage of Reddit gaming, if you have a gaming app. Those kinds of things that drive classic demand and branding on the web, that’s really what you’re looking for.

Marco: All right, that’s very interesting because, actually, I think most of the businesses, they think the same way, web and mobile, so that they use the same approach. What do you think will happen in two years’ time? I mean, in this world, Google will be the most dominant player? Facebook will become the most dominant player? If you can open your magic sphere, what will happen? Where would you suggest to invest for being on the right trend, and on the right direction?

Rand: Again, I’d go back to saying that some channels are going to be right for some businesses. Sometimes Google is all wrong for a business. I’ve worked with lots of start-ups that make a software product and I say, “Well, is anyone searching for this?” They say, “No. It doesn’t exist yet.” I say, “Well, then don’t do SEO. That’s not going to help you. You can rank for newfangled thing-a-my-jig all you want but nobody’s searching for it yet.” So, I would say go to the channels where it makes sense.

In terms of who’s going to be dominant, I think Facebook and Twitter and a few of these other ones. I don’t see Tumblr going anywhere but up. I think Pinterest is going to continue to grow. It will be a niche social network but it’ll continue to grow. Foursquare is going to continue to be big. They add users all the time. They’re growing engagement all the time.

For local it’s very big. Yelp is a huge network that’s continuing to grow internationally for local business, particularly for finding local businesses. There are tons of people who don’t even go to Google anymore they just pop open Yelp on their mobile device. So, you need to be on the right platform. I don’t see one of these companies dominating all the others. What I see is a very diverse world on the web and in the mobile world.

Marco: Is there some new start-up that you would say, “Hey, let’s keep an eye on those guys because they’re good,” path, or I don’t know? Is there any platform that you would day, “This is a good one”?

Rand: I think path is an interesting one. I haven’t seen them quite break into the mainstream yet, but they could be. Foursquare is a little like that. They’re kind of trailing, but they could get somewhere. It wouldn’t surprise me if we have something new in the… Well, I know technically they’re big, but I think Google Plus is actually going to be a very, very big and interesting social network on the scale of a LinkedIn or a Twitter, maybe not a Facebook, but in that couple hundred million active users, and very, very powerful for influencing SEO.

So, if you’re not on Google Plus today and you want to rank well on Google, get on there. Even if none of your friends are on there, even if you feel like it’s a ghost town and, oh, there’s nobody there, get there early. You don’t want to be late to the game on a platform that could change your business.

Marco: That’s interesting. I think a lot of companies are totally underestimating now Google Plus. I think in Europe, I don’t know the numbers, but I don’t think they’re big numbers in many countries at the moment, at least.

Rand: Which is why it’s a great time to adopt early.

Marco: Yes. Hey, Rand, last question. I was curious. You recently wrote about, in Italia, I would say with my horrible English accent, I would call it Crow [sic], CRO about conversion.

Rand: Conversion rate optimization.

Marco: Yeah. How do you say CRO?

Rand: Oh, it’s just like SEO. It’s CRO, for conversion Rate Optimization.

Marco: I was really interested in it. Just in 30 seconds, but if you have tips for companies willing to improve their conversion rate, and then obviously my suggestion is go to check your presentation about CRO because it’s very, very interesting how you’ve been using it on SEOmoz, so very interesting. But what would you recommend about improving conversion on a landing page, typically a website?

Rand: So, my biggest tip for conversion is, imagine that you’ve got two circles, right? SO, circle one over here is what the user is looking for, and this circle over here is what the webpage provides. You want the overlap to be perfect. You want the webpage to provide exactly what the user is looking for. That’s actually very rare.

You visit a lot of webpages where you think, “I think what they’re trying to do is very different from what I want to do.” If you line up those two things, that’s when you get great conversion activity. That means looking at the keywords that are sending traffic. It means asking smart questions to people who are visiting your website.

The best thing that you can do for conversion rate optimization, in terms of figuring out how to align those things, is to talk to your users, ask them smart questions. “Why did you come to the website?” “What were you hoping to find?” Ask the people who bought, “Why did you buy? Why do you keep buying from me?” Ask the people who didn’t buy, “What made you come in the first place and why didn’t you buy?”

Figure out what those objections are and then start to address those. It’s very simple and yet so many people don’t take advantage of it. That presentation, by the way that you’re talking about, it’s at I’m actually a huge fan of a tool called Unbounce. It allows you to create webpages and landing pages and make changes to them without being a web developer or a software engineer.

That’s really, really handy for a lot of marketers who are probably like, “I don’t want to write HTML code, and try to figure out the CSS and layout, and that kind of thing.” You can make a lot of changes and start testing right away. But the problem is, you won’t know what to test or how to test until you talk to your users.

Marco: All right. Rand, I really, really went long but I want to thank you so much for being here today.

Rand: Oh, my pleasure.

Marco: Good luck for everything. I’m waiting for you when you’re coming in Europe.

Rand: Awesome, look forward to it.

Marco: Great. Thank you so much. Bye, Rand.